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[hector_rashbaum]

You know, I hate that when I see shit like Live Offensively's crappy inflammatory "Christian" shirts my initial reaction is "ugh more people giving Christianity a bad name".

Because what that default reaction does is assume any given person isn't smart enough to separate an extremist minority from the moderate majority. Because if people had the capacity to separate - or used that capacity - there would be no "giving a bad name". And while I know there are plenty of people like that, maybe a majority...wouldn't it be nice if my default reaction was more insulting to the extremists than anyone else?

But when I hear things like "the only good Christian is a dead Christian" - because there are extremists, you see, everyone is bad - I'm not sure I can be blamed for defaulting to "the extremists are bad, and the rest of the world is stupid".

Comments

[stonefinder.livejournal.com]

Then perhaps the moderate majority needs to speak up some more. People pay attention to whomever screams the loudest. Of course, the moderate majority aren't nearly as newsworthy as the wacko nut jobs.

[(Anonymous)]

Are you seriously trying to say the problem with people painting everyone with the extremist brush isn't the fault of people being too fucking stupid/narrow-minded/intolerant/what-the-fuck-ever to think for thirty seconds, but the fault of the people getting unfairly painted with that brush?

Keep in mind most people wish the extremists would just shut the fuck up - and you think if more Christians start speaking up, people won't just have that same knee-jerk "omg stop shoving your faith down my throat omg" reaction? Especially considering these are people who've already proven themselves either incapable of - if not just too fucking lazy - rationally thinking this shit through.

But yeah, that makes total sense. Because I go about my life quietly believing what I believe without forcing it on people, I totally deserve to get told I won't be any good until I'm dead. And it's all my fault! Because I quietly go about my life believing what I believe, not forcing it on people like...those...people...who inspire the "only good ones are dead ones" comments. OH I GET IT.

I mean, by your logic, it's totally justified to assume all Afghanis are terrorists, because hey, the terrorists are the ones we think of first, and it's so fucking hard to think for thirty seconds that there are a couple thousand people not blowing shit up. But it's their fault so many people assume Muslim = terrorist, because they haven't caught our attention!

[stonefinder.livejournal.com]

No, I'm saying the extremists get the attention because they make better copy.

[hector-rashbaum.livejournal.com]

I know that's what you were saying.

That doesn't make a difference. My point, that you clearly missed, is that it makes people look like fucking idiots when they refuse to put in the wee little bit of cognitive work it takes to understand extremist =/= all.

So this is how what you're saying follows:

If extremists get more attention because they make better stories, but the only way for the moderates to stop getting broad-brushed is to get more attention ("Then perhaps the moderate majority needs to speak up some more."), the moderate majority will have to behave more like extremists in order to take newstime away from the extremists.

Making those stupid, moronic, narrow-minded, lazy broad-brush judgements...truth.

[stonefinder.livejournal.com]

Hector, one of the most difficult things I've had to learn and still struggle with is the fact that most people don't think and they don't want to think. Sure, if you think about these things, you realize how stupid it all is but most people don't go that far. They are going to listen to who screams the loudest and never go farther then that. They don't even bother to question because that takes effort and thinking is hard, and a lot people simply don't want to do it. So if all they hear is negative stereotypes, that's is what they are going to believe and our frustration with it isn't going to make a wit of difference.

Of course it makes people look like idiots, but you know what? They don't care! On the contrary, they think we're the idiots. So how do you convince someone who doesn't want to listen? And I'm not saying moderates should behave like extremists. If they did that, they'd be extremists. No, I'm saying that if they want to counteract the negativity, they need to be a little proactive about saying "Hey! We're not about that!"

[hector-rashbaum.livejournal.com]

Well, first of all, all I was doing was venting. I'm well aware I can't expect what I want - I even nodded to that in the post. But venting, fair game.

And 90% of the time, I don't even care. When I do care is when people start putting thought in - which is what you do when you rationalize this kind of crap. Which is what you've been doing, whether you mean to or not.

You didn't come in saying "yeah, well, idiots, what can you do". You came in with "your fault, speak up more". And intent be damned, because that is what you implied. You came in and defended the people who don't fucking think and put the blame on me - or the Christians like me who go about life not bothering anyone and have to listen to shit like "only good one's a dead one".

It pisses me off, on occasion, the way people broad-brush stuff like this. But what pisses me off consistently is the point of view that it's somehow anyone's fault but the lazy/stupid/whatever stereotypers. Sure, people are lazy when it comes to parsing social groups - but to behave as if it's somehow the fault of anyone other than the lazy person, that's a surefire way to get me.

And I'm not saying moderates should behave like extremists. If they did that, they'd be extremists. No, I'm saying that if they want to counteract the negativity, they need to be a little proactive about saying "Hey! We're not about that!"

Okay, so you missed my point again. The thing is, every single day there are moderate Christians out there either outright saying this, or behaving in ways that imply this. But as you said, extremists get more attention, because better stories.

So. And I'll even bold this.

To get enough attention to get the lazy stereotypers image of Christianity reversed, moderate Christians need more press. Extremism is all that gets press. Therefore, in order to get the attention you claim is necessary, moderate Christians must adopt more extreme behavior to attract attention.

[stonefinder.livejournal.com]

You are reading way more into what I said then I intended. Obviously, I can't control what you get out of what I write anymore then you can control what I get from what you write. Seems like we're misconstruing which each of us is saying and as such, I see no point in continuing this. The irony is, I agree with a lot of what you're saying in your original post, I just don't waste my energy on it.

ETA x 2 - and I need to proof read more.

[hector-rashbaum.livejournal.com]

That ranty shit was me; LJ logged me out and I didn't notice until I'd hit Post.

[sidewinder.livejournal.com]

What gets me is it's seemingly perfect ok these days to bash Christians in general due to the actions and beliefs of extremists, whereas doing so for any other religious group (or atheists) will get you labeled a bigot, evil, etc etc etc.

I'm not ashamed of being a Christian. I'm disturbed by the actions of extremists and evangelicals who, in my opinion, represent nothing but the polar opposite of what Christianity is supposed to be about (forgiveness, acceptance, charity and love). But I'm also not going to keep feeling like I have to apologize for my religious beliefs because of these people who IMO don't have anything to do with my religion.

[madandy.livejournal.com]

LOL, passive aggressive much? Funnily enough I was going to send you a pm about all this, but clearly I don't need to bother. Being stupid and all.

A good shirt in response would be 'You believe in your fantasy, and I'll believe in mine'.

[madandy.livejournal.com]

Stupid, moronic, narrow minded?! Wow.

[hector-rashbaum.livejournal.com]

It is stupid, moronic, narrow-minded thinking. I misspoke labeling everyone who thinks that way as stupid, moronic, narrow-minded people, yes, but "extremists = everyone" is a stupid line of thought.

[hector-rashbaum.livejournal.com]

Of course! There's no need to address that you told me, intentionally or not, I'm no good until I'm dead because I got upset about it.

I actually was gonna "leave it at that" when I replied to you on RockFic. But I got the same reaction from five or six people - mind, none quite so extreme as yours - and leaving it was bothering me.

[evaine.livejournal.com]

*hesitantly sticking my little toe into the pool*

I think, Hec, that you've done exactly what stonefinder suggests. You've spoken up against the extremist minority. You are a moderate Christian who has spoken out against the excesses of the wackaloon team. And I appreciate that no end!

Speaking from a non-big C-Christian viewpoint (raised Catholic and therefore christian in the basic sense of the word), that extreme minority is LOUD and it's SCARY and ILLOGICAL and I don't understand the aggression of them and the way their belief system has to colour all aspects of their lives so overpoweringly. So when someone like yourself expresses some of the same ... may I call it outrage?... that I feel in face of that kind of batshit crazy, I'm glad. It reaffirms to me that not all Christians are evangelical nutbars.

I understand your knee-jerk reaction - it's only human, after all. :) It's the same reaction I have when the francophone folks here in Quebec make some anti-anglophone statement (and there are wackaloon anglophones here, believe me) and I get my back up as one of the anglophone minority. It stings, it hurts and it frightens me even though logically I know they're not meaning me personally. I just worry about the day that they might begin to. Does that make ANY sense?

*HUGS*